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Airlines sue DOT over new rules requiring disclosure of fees

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Major airlines have filed a lawsuit against the federal government over new rules that would require carriers to disclose all airline fees — including those for checked and carry-on bags as well as change and cancelation fees — up front. (www.cnn.com) More...

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Upperchucked
C. W. GRADY 45
Don't confuse what "should be" disclosed with what is disclosed. It is a deep, dark hole with no way out .... $10 if you make your reservation by calling, $10 if you want to avoid being the last person to board, $30 for a seat that is larger than a child size potty chair, $50 for checked baggage, $30 for larger carry-on items, $40 if you want to be seated with your family members .... oh what to object to!
lakemountain
lakemountain 17
You forgot about: $30 for mandatory oxygen above 10,000 feet, $40 if you want your dignity intact by the end of the flight, $20 speedtape surcharge for keep the plane flying
666adt
So if YOU know all those fees, then they ARE disclosed.
Optimist134
Ed Huenniger 2
Yeah, AFTER you choose your flight and go to the pay for it process.
Cobradeux
😂😂👍
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
English Please!
sparkie624
sparkie624 41
In my opinion... If you are charging a Fee... you should disclose what the fee is for...
scottiwa
That way you don’t get the government involved.
666adt
Who doesn't do that?
scottiwa
Do something about it.
Skyking794
Stan Deutsch 55
When any company is afraid of transparency in pricing, beware of price gouging and bait/switch.
Nooge
Nooge -3
When any company is unwilling to provide transparency in pricing, and price gouges or and baits/switch the Government protects us

I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help. Yay
scottiwa
A joke, right?
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -2
Change "company" for Giv'mint ,pricing for "votes" and price gouging for 16,000,000 illegal aliens.. and we'll have a talk!
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -2
Total BS! You're from the "Lefts" .. do as I say, and not as I do! Try harder. You don't even know who's running this country!
DaveRK
DaveRK -2
I have a sneaking suspicion that people like you Bill tend to have limited knowledge and poor grasp of facts and anything you read you have to make it political.
I'm only speaking for myself here, please do me a favor and go read the comic section.
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -2
I have a sneaking suspension you took to many Covid shots?
Nooge
Nooge -3
I have a sneaking "suspension" too

Social Darwinism eliminating the mentally weak and immoral of the population helped Make America be a little bit Greater Again

Once COVID Vaccines Were Introduced, More Republicans Died Than Democrats
A new Yale study looks at excess deaths by partisan affiliation in two states during the pandemic. Once vaccines were introduced in the spring of 2021, Yale SOM’s Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham anA new Yale study looks at excess deaths by partisan affiliation in two states during the pandemic. Once vaccines were introduced in the spring of 2021, Yale SOM’s Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham and his co-authors found, the rate of deaths among Republicans and Democrats began to diverge.d his co-authors found, the rate of deaths among Republicans and Democrats began to diverge.
New research from Yale SOM points to another factor that puts people at greater risk of dying from COVID-19: party affiliation. The study finds that excess deaths during the pandemic were 76% higher among Republicans than Democrats in two states, Ohio and Florida. What’s more, the partisan gap in death rates increased significantly after vaccines were introduced.The research was conducted by Yale SOM’s Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham and Jacob Wallace and Jason L. Schwartz of the Yale School of Public Health
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 3
This does not make any sense as some of this is repeated several times and in a very broken way.
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -3
Why would
I go anywhere comical, you're funny enough?
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -3
Sounds like you took 8 Covid shots and 15 boosters! Thank you may I have another?
DaveRK
DaveRK 1
Do you realize that in ALL your comments, you have yet to address what I first pointed out?
Explain to me (and present the source you used) how this is caused by the "Lefts" .
BTW, I am a conservative, but I research facts on my own, NOT what some talking heads spews just to try keep the under-educated and ill-informed in my grasp.
Nooge
Nooge -2
Wow every body had their figures crossed as the numbers were in out favor that he would be overdue for some Ivermectin


Scientific American
JULY 18, 2022
By Lydia Denworth

People in Republican Counties Have Higher Death Rates Than Those in Democratic Counties
A growing mortality gap between Republican and Democratic areas may largely stem from policy choices
During the COVID-19 pandemic, the link between politics and health became glaringly obvious. Democrat-leaning “blue” states were more likely to enact mask requirements and vaccine and social distancing mandates. Republican-leaning “red” states were much more resistant to health measures. The consequences of those differences emerged by the end of 2020, when deaths from Covid rose in conservative counties and dropped in liberal ones. That divergence continued through 2021, when vaccines became widely available. And although the highly transmissible Omicron variant narrowed the gap in infection rates, hospitalization and death rates, which are dramatically reduced by vaccines, remain higher in Republican-leaning parts of the country.
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 0
Now post a study about how many businesses went under or closed based on how a state leans.
mattwestuk
Matt West 48
I don't see why they are so afraid to list these fees. If they have nothing to hide, then what's the problem?

Ironically, none of the budget carriers - Spirit, Frontier, SWA, Allegiant - who get most of their revenue from said fees are not included in the lawsuit.
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 12
Southwest is upfront about not paying for checked baggage. I also believe that those who fly Southwest are aware of being able to pay to board sooner rather than later.
Citation1guy
And Southwest is not a party to this lawsuit. I believe they call it "TransFAREncy." I love the airline!!!
marcusangelus
Mark Jenkins 3
It has been my experience that Southwest's published fare is what you pay, with two checked bags flying at no extra charge. There is an extra payment you can make to jump ahead in the boarding line that isn't part of the published fare. It doesn't rise to the level of an undisclosed fee in my opinion. I've never paid it myself.
btweston
btweston 29
What’s legalese for “we want to be shady about what we’re charging people”?
ThinkingGuy
George Lane 27
The airline business is a pretty good example of what Scott Adams called a confusopoly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusopoly
stevemondral
steve mondral 47
All gov't fees and taxes should be shown upfront as well.
williamscottrobertson
So should SUBSIDIES
NeilPostlethwaiteItsAllBroken
Similar to the newish ISP’s Internet health-card before purchase.
nasdisco
Chris B 22
North American airfares are much higher than European fares.

Is this suit evidence there is collusion or price fixing by the airlines? .

We need this suit to gobd out
RJBrown409
Randy Brown -2
North American flight DISTANCES are also much further than European.
LAX to DEN is 300 miles further by plane than London to Berlin.
I’m smart enough to compare final ticket price as it is right now.
Is this another lowest common denominator directed law. Let’s pass a law that only helps the stupid and lazy. Does that describe a voting block?
Too many laws, rules and regulations out there already that we have to pay for. This law would add additional costs to all flights. Every flight would cost more, that’s what governments do best.
dilkie
dilkie 11
i think Canada added a rule a few years ago that the price shown when searching for flights has to be a "final" price, including all fees and such.
Since then airlines have added more fees for things like overhead storage and picking a seat..
Time for the gov to force them and the search engines to include any of those extra fees as well. Overhead storage for a carry-on should be included in the displayed price as should the cost of a seat choice. (ideally one would initiate a search with the features one wants and get a proper comparison)
Upperchucked
C. W. GRADY 20
Oh, that's easy.. We covered that in our first year at law school. It is: “we want to be shady about what we’re charging people”?
Simple and to the point.
NeilPostlethwaiteItsAllBroken
Vested interests lobbying. Being opaque increases margins.
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -2
Frenzy is the nurse of melancholy!
wjm100
wjm100 8
I suspect the reason they don't want to list the fees up front is that when you do a search for flights it is sorted by the base fare without fees. They hook you with the first impression that it's a cheaper flight and hope that once you find out about all the add-ons you won't take the trouble to look for another carrier. It's the classic bait and switch.
kennethwalks45
Ken Fedder 7
Why not tell what each billing is, “before you Purchase” your ticket? The airlines always tell you what it is “after” you have your ticket. I personally dislike what the airlines do regarding the purchase price of a ticket with all the add-ons.
najum
AA Najum 13
We in Europe already get receipt with all the details so why airlines in US are scared?
For example here what we get as info:

Air Transportation Charges:
EUR 93.00
Base fare EUR 93.00

Surcharges
EUR 18.00
International/Domestic Surcharge EUR 18.00

Taxes, fees and charges
EUR 74.30
Airport Passenger And Security Tax EUR 35.00
Air Passenger Duty EUR 14.60
Passenger Service Charge/Departure EUR 24.70

Total price per adult
EUR 185.30
× 1 Adult
EUR 185.30

Extra Services:
Seats Included

VIE <--> LHR
1 Seat
Included
raynetherwood
Amazing/bizarre …….
ronlevandoski
Ron Levandoski 12
Every bill passed by Congress should, at the very top of the page, list each and every bit of lobby money and identify exactly who paid how much to each politician. Lobbyists get what they want, not the hard working taxpayers! We need this transparency NOW!!!
MarcusGiddens
Follow the money...each and every time..when something doesn't make sense .....follow the $$$
wjm100
wjm100 10
No coincidence that they filed in the 5th Circuit, which is the most conservative and anti-regulation circuit in the country. This is the court that gave us the brilliant ruling that the FDA should not have approved the abortion drug Mifipristone on grounds of safety despite a 20-year record of no problems. Ideology trumps expertise.
BillOverdue
Bill Overdue -2
20 yr record of "no problems"?Mifipristone can result in cardiac arrest due to coronary vasospasm. Chronic itching, hives, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, or throat.
Heavy vaginal bleeding.
High fever. Stomach pain, unusual weakness or fatigue, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, or fever that lasts longer than expected.
Breakthrough bleeding, and menstrual irregularity. But you're right none of these will prevent a woman, too stupid to take a birth control pill in the first place from her maternal responsibility!
willardk
so don't take it. stay out of other people's personal lives and decisions.
pany
What the government is asking for, I think, is that charge that airlines make to our reservations, that read: "AIRLINE IMPOSED FEES", which are added to the airfare that they charge to passengers. These are not extra fees for luggage, seat reservations, etc. I would agree with the DOT in this case..... because I am always charged a ridiculous large amount for this type of fees when traveling to Europe.... Check it out and you will see what I mean.... make a dummy reservation to check it out..... Why would airlines charge an EXTRA "imposed fee" when they are already charging a "fare" for the ticket?
sasdrtx
Steve Smith 2
I agree that it's egregious... but in their defense, that fee is always disclosed and include in the quoted price.
pany
Fair point, Steve. BUT, what is that "Carrier-imposed charge" for? Shouldn't the airline specify what is that extra charge for? What do you think?
sasdrtx
Steve Smith 2
Yes, I'd like an explanation, but it won't make any difference to us. I suspect that they trigger some kind of tax loophole for charging the fare this way. There's no doubt if "carrier-imposed surcharge" was banned, that amount would be added into the "base fare".
pany
For Example, a flight from Los Angeles (LAX) to Bangkok (BKK) sometime this coming December, on EMIRATES:
( see the "CARRIER IMPOSED CHARGE" of USD$534.00 below !!! )

Fare for 1 adult
$2,376.70
This ticket is non-refundable.
Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.
Cancellation of this ticket will incur a penalty fee.

Fare 1: Carrier EK QKEIPUS1 LAX to BKK (rules)
Passenger type ADT, ROUND-TRIP fare, booking code Q
Covers LAX-DXB (Economy), DXB-BKK (Economy)
$804.50

Fare 2: Carrier EK KKEESUS1 BKK to LAX (rules)
Passenger type ADT, ROUND-TRIP fare, booking code K
Covers BKK-DXB (Economy), DXB-LAX (Economy)
$918.00

Thailand Advance Passenger Processing User Charge (E7)
$2.00
United Arab Emirates Passenger Facilities Charge (F6)
$21.80
Thailand International Arrival Fee (G8)
$0.80
United Arab Emirates International Advanced Passenger Information Fee Departures (ZR)
$2.80


-------> Carrier-imposed surcharge (YQ)
$534.00

United States Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee (AY)
$5.60
US International Departure Tax (US)
$44.40
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
$4.50
United States APHIS Passenger Fee Passengers (XA)
$3.83
United States Customs User Fee (YC)
$6.97
United States Immigration User Fee (XY)
$7.00
Thailand Passenger Service Charge (TS)
$20.00
Subtotal per passenger
$2,376.70
Number of passengers
x1
Subtotal for 1 adult
$2,376.70
Fare Construction (can be useful to travel agents)
LAX EK X/DXB EK BKK Q50.00 754.50QKEIPUS1 EK X/DXB EK LAX Q50.00 868.00KKEESUS1 NUC 1722.50 END ROE 1.00 XT 6.97YC 7.00XY 3.83XA 44.40US 5.60AY 21.80F6 2.80ZR 2.00E7 0.80G8 20.00TS 534.00YQ 4.50XF LAX4.50
pany
Example: SAME FLIGHTS AS ABOVE (LAX/BKK/LAX), on EMIRATES, in BUSINESS CLASS
(See the "CARRIER IMPOSED CHARGE" of USD$ 2,420.00 below !! )

Fare for 1 adult
$7,768.70
This ticket is non-refundable.
Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.
Cancellation of this ticket will incur a penalty fee.

Fare 1: Carrier EK OEEEPUS1 LAX to BKK (rules)
Passenger type ADT, ROUND-TRIP fare, booking code O
Covers LAX-DXB (Business), DXB-BKK (Business)
$2,099.50

Fare 2: Carrier EK IEEESUS1 BKK to LAX (rules)
Passenger type ADT, ROUND-TRIP fare, booking code I
Covers BKK-DXB (Business), DXB-LAX (Business)
$3,129.50

Thailand Advance Passenger Processing User Charge (E7)
$2.00
United Arab Emirates Passenger Facilities Charge (F6)
$21.80
Thailand International Arrival Fee (G8)
$0.80
United Arab Emirates International Advanced Passenger Information Fee Departures (ZR)
$2.80

-----> Carrier-imposed surcharge (YQ)
$2,420.00

United States Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee (AY)
$5.60
US International Departure Tax (US)
$44.40
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
$4.50
United States APHIS Passenger Fee Passengers (XA)
$3.83
United States Customs User Fee (YC)
$6.97
United States Immigration User Fee (XY)
$7.00
Thailand Passenger Service Charge (TS)
$20.00
Subtotal per passenger
$7,768.70
Number of passengers
x1
Subtotal for 1 adult
$7,768.70

Fare Construction (can be useful to travel agents)
LAX EK X/DXB EK BKK 2099.50OEEEPUS1 EK X/DXB EK LAX 3129.50IEEESUS1 NUC 5229.00 END ROE 1.00 XT 6.97YC 7.00XY 3.83XA 44.40US 5.60AY 21.80F6 2.80ZR 2.00E7 0.80G8 20.00TS 2420.00YQ 4.50XF LAX4.50
KWSyler
Kevin Syler 17
What “are” they afraid of?!?! List it all!!! Airport fee, gov’t fee, taxes, baggage, etc, etc, etc. Every flight I’ve been on lately, if they experience any turbulence or “think” there may be some, the snack drink cart stay in its hole. 200+ passengers no coke or peanuts, adds up on multiple flights. Oh, first class still gets theirs, go figure!!
gsmith4151
harold smith 3
But first class has a protective bubble that makes it safe to serve them during turbulence. Everyone knows this
NeilPostlethwaiteItsAllBroken
A Hand Shandy ?
BillSchworer
Bill Schworer 6
Its not at all surprising that the majors have filed suit against a regulation that disrupts their business model. Travel related businesses that are largely fixed cost in the short run, i.e. airlines, hotels, rental cars, etc. are tough businesses to be in because profit and loss are highly related to volume of sales. Airlines and rental cars, and to a certain extent hotels, are further burdened with being "commodity products", that is for most people airliners are just busses with wings and rental cars are basically interchangeable. Commodity pricing puts a huge downward pressure on price, particularly when consumer travel sites will rank and sort by price. In this environment the ability to obfuscate total price plays to the provider's advantage, because the last thing any of the major carriers wants to compete on is mostly cost. The easier a system makes it for the traveler to compare total cost the greater the downward pressure in pricing. For example, separate bag fees were introduced as a way to goose total revenue in a price oriented system. There is no way it costs the airline $25 to $50 to handle a bag when the infrastructure and labor is already in place, the marginal cost for an extra bag might be a buck or two. Once the inclusive ticket cost was broken out from a separate bag fee it made the ticket "less expensive" in the search engines when doing cost oriented searches. The same principal applies to all the other "hidden fees" charged by airlines and hotels. Sure, the diligent cost oriented traveler can figure out the total cost of a ticket before making a purchase, but that takes time and energy and a lot of folks wont go to the trouble to do so, which plays to the obfuscation's advantage. So the lawsuit is a perfectly logical strategy.
AlanBDahl
Alan Dahl 3
Oddly despite no one liking taxes I have to think that these excessive fees are the result of the government not taxing the total ticket price after fees. I'm sure everyone will find this surprising and nonsensical but follow me here. Only the actual fare is subject to tax, the add-on fees are not taxable. Thus by reducing the ticket price and increasing the fees the company can take money previously paid to the government and keep it for itself. I suspect that if the entire transaction was taxed we'd see more companies bundling in things like free baggage like Southwest does. Now I am sure some will say that's great that the government gets less money but we as customers get less service in the process too.
gtnielsen
Garry Nielsen 3
In Canada, all fees have to be posted before you buy anything, with exception of sales taxes. No surprises!
66mask
Matt Knighton 4
Transparency is the customers’ guarantee of company integrity. Honest people and/or corporations are not afraid to lay all their cards on the table.
raynetherwood
It is amazing to look at the actual “cost” of a ticket, especially with international travel.

What a carrier will receive will at some point be less than all of the taxes and fees (and these aren’t the carriers’, these are domestic and foreign government imposed) …… there is some irony in this latest government move to “protect” consumers.

What would be nice is if all the three letter agencies with “cyber crime” departments getting BILLIONS of our tax dollars, could actually do something about hackers and scammers.

I had a card get hacked on an airline ticket of all things, and neither the bank nor the Feds would have been concerned about ticket fees, there was barely more than a shoulder shrug and a new credit card issued.
DaveRK
DaveRK 4
I'm not agreeing with it but the fact is, there is so much credit card scamming and hacking going on they simply don't have the time, the manpower or the energy to chase it. I had a similar problem just like you. They even knew who did it, but since I was not out any money, they weren't going to go any further with it.
raynetherwood
I hear you, but by tolerating isn’t it encouraging the behavior? I can’t monetize what happened with me because I had other cards and cash, but conceivably there are people who hacking/scamming impacts dramatically — especially if traveling. Had an 88 y/o mom get scammed out of $3k, so I don’t need to look at big statistics …. the crimes exist,
and they shouldn’t.
feote
Ken Jackson 2
I can’t say that I understand the reasons for filing a lawsuit. Don’t airlines operate under the regulations of DOT? And, in many respects, at the pleasure of DOT?
bruceahz
Bruce Horwitz 2
I know Hertz for sure, but maybe all rental companies, do this at least partly now. A 2-day car rental is listed as "$50/day, estimated total for rental is $140". The $140 includes taxes and mandatory fees, but there are still the add ons like the CDW, special equipment (e.g., child safety seats), and pre-pay gas. The difference with the airlines is that a lot of the add-ons are not really separate items with meaningful marginal costs to the airline. Picking your seats, for example, has $0 marginal costs but has been split off by the airlines enhance their profit.
jbsimms
James Simms 1
But Hertz is so shady having a lousy reputation for things like reporting you rental car as stolen even though you turned it in months ago or as recently as last week, charging a $277 gas fee even though the vehicle was a Tesla where the recharge fee was something like $30.

Steve Lehto on YT has a whole series of Hertz episodes on Hertz, would make one to never rent a vehicle again.
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 1
At least from Hertz.
jimshilliday
Jim Shilliday 3
There is nothing "private" about any airline. They serve the common public interest or they shouldn't exist. There is no place for conniving cowboy capitalism in the transportation industry. I'm looking at you Boeing, BNSF, CSX.
1skate1
David Purtz 2
Delta One West Palm Beach to Dublin, return from London.

Plenty of junk government fees but we won't talk about that as it's not part of the approved anti-business narrative.


description amount currency
Air Transportation Charges
Base Fare: $2,560.00 USD
Carrier-imposed International Surcharge (YR): $1,910.00 USD


United States - September 11th Security Fee(Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee) (AY) $11.20 USD
United Kingdom - Air Passenger Duty (APD) (GB) $246.30 USD
United Kingdom - Passenger Service Charge (UB) $62.10 USD
United States - Transportation Tax (US) $42.20 USD
United States - Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Fee (APHIS User Fee - Passengers (XA) $3.83 USD
United States - Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $13.50 USD
United States - Immigration and Naturalization Fee(Immigration User Fee) (XY) $7.00 USD
United States - Custom User Fee (YC) $6.97 USD
Summary of all charges for all passengers, including air-fare, taxes, fees, and other charges
description amount currency

Total Price: $4,863.10 USD
Bandrunner
Bandrunner 1
Wow, the UK really hose the trans-Atlantic pax for simply moving. Let's kill the goose, etc.
briansfreeman
Brian Freeman -3
And with the new regulations your fare description will read:
Air Transportation Charges Base Fare: $4863.10
Actually probably more like $5063.10 so the airline can recoup charges for extra staff they will have to add to manage the accounting of paying those fees on your behalf.
Just how naive does Biden think we are??
n555cf
rbt schaffer 2
Would be nice if they could get your luggage there begore your vacay is over... Is there afee for that?
TrevDev
This satire sums the situation up nicely:
https://youtu.be/uVASZ2lCY5Y?si=fC084VjJNX-blDuj
d0ugparker
Doug Parker 1
A healthy culture promotes awareness of everything, including the culture itself—unhealthy cultures operate believing they're better than its members, lacking self-examination.

Individuals knowing all things about their culture stops tricks, deception, and surprise.

Unhealthy cultures trick, deceive, and surprise.
pjcabrel
Peter Cabrel 1
"IMF Steps Up Its Warning to US Over Spending and Ballooning DebtAnnual report credits unsustainable spending for US growthUS fiscal stance risks global financial instability, IMF says."
The last thing I, or any intelligent person, wants is the United States CONgress interference in private enterprise.

The comments posted on this subject is evidence that in a Consumer-driven Free Market economy, the consumers will use their power of their purse to determine the prudent solutions. The company(s) that are upfront and consumer-oriented will be the winners. As they will get the consumer's business, repeat business and referrals.
All CONgress does is muck up things.
scubaboy3c
Can't blame them I guess. How much will your ticket end up costing before you actually pay?

No one knows, really, not even the airline. LOL!!!!
ksmith610
ksmith610 1
Airline CEOs and board members each need a personal visit from an angry Luca Brasi.
666adt
What fees AREN'T disclosed? When I fly, I know how to determine exactly what my ticket will cost, including all supplementary fees of which I might partake. My airfare is NEVER a surprise.

We do NOT need government sticking their noses in where they don't belong, just because some incompetent people don't know how to do some basic research, use the internet, or ask relevant questions.
AlanBDahl
Alan Dahl 1
I will give you one, try searching international flights with baggage fees, which can run over $100/bag, included sometime. I've found only one search engine that does that but in most cases unless you research every airline's website ahead of time (where of course they hide the fees as much as possible) you won't know the baggage cost until you book.
manarii
This is part of running a business which government definitely does NOT know how to do. It's none of their business and if they want to know the cost, look it up on the airlines website.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

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